Bush Writes to North Korean Leader

[Joeychgo]

WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 — President Bush, directly engaging the man he publicly called a “tyrant” and privately called a “pygmy,” wrote a letter to the North Korean leader Kim Jong-il in which he held out the prospect of normalized relations with the United States if North Korea fully disclosed all nuclear programs and got rid of its nuclear weapons, administration officials said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/06/wo...-korea.html?hp

This is EXACTLY what he should have done YEARS ago!

[Turk]

Originally Posted by Joeychgo

This is EXACTLY what he should have done YEARS ago!

You're kidding right? Yeah, and Kim Jon Il would have said sure, no problem president Bush as he was testing his nuclear missiles over the Pacific ocean. The only reason North Korea is cooperating now is because they figured out they can't do it without us, they need our aide or they will all starve. A few years ago they did not understand this concept.

[Arch]

They did understand it, but we played the same stupid saber rattling game with them and in the end we're right back where we started with time wasted.

[Joeychgo]

Originally Posted by Arch

They did understand it, but we played the same stupid saber rattling game with them and in the end we're right back where we started with time wasted.

Exactly.

[Turk]

Originally Posted by Arch

They did understand it, but we played the same stupid saber rattling game with them and in the end we're right back where we started with time wasted.

Am I missing something here??? Usually sabre rattling consists of testing weapons, or doing military excercises near the opposing nation. I don't recall the US ever doing this.

[Arch]

Originally Posted by Turk

Am I missing something here??? Usually sabre rattling consists of testing weapons, or doing military excercises near the opposing nation. I don't recall the US ever doing this.

We are always 'running exercises' and playing war games in the pacific. Don't kid yourself.

[Turk]

I don't really see that as a bad thing either. It's one thing to sabre rattle with somebody that can actually hit back like Russia or China, but I have no problem with flexing a little muscle against these little countries.

[Arch]

Originally Posted by Turk

I don't really see that as a bad thing either. It's one thing to sabre rattle with somebody that can actually hit back like Russia or China, but I have no problem with flexing a little muscle against these little countries.

Young one, eh?

[Turk]

Originally Posted by Arch

Young one, eh?

24, what's your point??? Maybe we should just sit back and let everybody do what they want. Kind of like what happened in the 30s with Hitler in Europe.

[Arch]

Originally Posted by Turk

24, what's your point??? Maybe we should just sit back and let everybody do what they want. Kind of like what happened in the 30s with Hitler in Europe.

In the 30's Britain and the USA were busy profiting from the arming of Germany through helping build and finance their production infrastructure. Same thing we did back in the 1980's with Iraq.

No one was sitting back. We were part of the problem that started the ball rolling in the first place. History keeps repeating itself until you own up to your own responsibility in it and change the course of action.

'Flexing muscle' invites more conflict oriented thinking and reactions until something stupid happens; and it always does. Diplomacy is an art that few people have. It involves understanding the other person's position and point of view and allowing them to save face while you both get what you really want/need. For N. Korea, they don't NEED nuclear technology. What they do need is fuel/energy and food. They view nuclear technology as the key to both. Being willing to give them what they need (Food and energy in a non nuclear fashion, or even a moderated fashion that we can be assured can not produce fissionable material by having another party broker the fissionable material) in an ongoing arrangement will make the nuclear weapons/plutonium enrichment pursuit desire dwindle. The trick is to allow them to 'save face' about it. Fail to do that, and all bets are off.

Ego is just as bad for world leaders as it is for teenagers and mid 20 yr olds.

[Turk]

The treaty of Versailles....

Military Restrictions on Germany
The Rhineland to be a demilitarized zone.
The German armed forces cannot number more than 100,000 troops and no conscription.
Enlisted men were to be retained for at least 12 years; officers were to be retained for at least 25 years.
Manufacturing of weapons is prohibited.
Import and export of weapons is prohibited.
Manufacture or stockpiling of poison gas is prohibited.
Tanks are prohibited.
Naval forces limited to 15,000 men, 6 battleships (no more than 10,000 tons displacement each), 6 cruisers (no more than 6,000 tons displacement each), 12 destroyers (no more than 800 tons displacement each) and 12 torpedo boats (no more than 200 tons displacement each).
Submarines are prohibited.
Military aircraft are prohibited.
Artillery is prohibited.
Blockades on ports are prohibited


Now how many of these did the Germans break during the late 20s and 30s??? Exactly. And we just sat back and watched it happen like the rest of Europe. I dont care if we were getting fat building up their infrastructure, we still watched them become a military power over night because they broke the rules of the treaty and nobody was willing to step in and do anything before it was too late. BTW, I don't recall America pouring any money into Germany after World War I. Germany was hell to live in during the 20s, they had a worse depression than the US because no money was being poured into the country.

[Turk]

Just to make it easier for you... I may be young, I didn't live through this time, but have been fascinated by the military might of the US and the wars we have fought for quite awihle. History will repeat itself, so now is the best time to fight the war, when the opponent is weak. We have spent more money rebuilding Iraq than we had in Germany after World War II. I did not see anywhere of any country building up Germany after WWI, it just seems to me that all the countries were trying to suck Germany dry. Do you have any facts to back your statements???



The German economy was so weak that only a small percentage of reparations were paid in money. However, even the payment of this small percentage of the original reparations (219 billion Gold Reichsmarks) still placed a significant burden on the German economy, accounting for as much as one third of post-treaty hyperinflation. Furthermore, the provisions forcing the uncompensated removal of resources and industrial equipment sowed further resentment.

Some significant violations (or avoidances) of the provisions of the Treaty were:

In 1919 the dissolution of the General Staff appeared to happen. However, the core of the General Staff was hidden within another organization, the Truppenamt, where it rewrote all Heer (Army) and Luftwaffe (Air Force) doctrinal and training materials based on the experience of World War I.
The Treaty of Rapallo was an agreement in the Italian town of Rapallo on 16 April 1922 between Germany (the Weimar Republic) and Russia SFSR under which each renounced all territorial and financial claims against the other following the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk and World War I. A secret annex signed on 29 July allowed Germany to train their military in Soviet territory, thus violating the terms of the Treaty of Versailles. The first post-war German tanks and aircraft were tested and exercised under this (see Soviet-German relations before 1941).
In March 1935, Adolf Hitler violated the Treaty of Versailles by introducing compulsory military conscription in Germany and rebuilding the armed forces. This included a new Navy (Kriegsmarine), the first full armoured divisions (Panzerwaffe) and an Air Force (Luftwaffe). For the first time since the war, Germany's armed forces were as strong as those of France.
In June 1935 the Treaty was abandoned by the United Kingdom with the signing of the Anglo-German Naval Agreement.
In March 1936, Hitler violated the Treaty by reoccupying the demilitarized zone in the Rhineland.
In March 1938, Hitler violated the Treaty by annexing Austria in the Anschluss.
In March 1939, Hitler violated the Treaty by occupying the rest of Czechoslovakia.
In September 1939, Hitler violated the Treaty by invading Poland, thus initiating World War II in Europe.

[Arch]

Unfortunately the winners like to conveniently leave inconvenient truths out of the history books.

"Trading with the Enemy" by Charles Higham,

http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/

Will get you started for WW2. For Iraq, just go dig up some Reagan era history about the American and British companies helping to build Iraq's weapons programs. It's not hard to find the information.

Also, don't try to compare NK's leader with Hitler. To think KJ is the next Hitler is, well, let's just politely call it comical. NK doesn't have plans of regional domination because they know they can't do it. They posture themselves to try to get other world leaders to sit down and help feed their starving population.

There's no doubt Germany violated the treaty. Almost every country does when they claim it to be important to 'national security'.

[tallok]

Originally Posted by Joeychgo

This is EXACTLY what he should have done YEARS ago!

That's totally right. I don't get why the idea of sitting down and talking about your problems is so foreign to people.

[Arch]

Originally Posted by tallok

That's totally right. I don't get why the idea of sitting down and talking about your problems is so foreign to people.

Because it requires compromise and most people are stuck in the 5 yr old emotional development stage of MINE MINE MINE.. NOT YOURS! NOT YOURS!
I CAN but YOU CAN'T.... NOT MY FAULT!

[Blackie]

north koreans dont care what bush says

[tallok]

Originally Posted by Arch

Because it requires compromise and most people are stuck in the 5 yr old emotional development stage of MINE MINE MINE.. NOT YOURS! NOT YOURS!
I CAN but YOU CAN'T.... NOT MY FAULT!

Don't forget that for politicians, it's weak to work things out but it's strong to start an unending war and piss everyone off. You have to look strong.

[Arch]

Originally Posted by tallok

Don't forget that for politicians, it's weak to work things out but it's strong to start an unending war and piss everyone off. You have to look strong.

Pride goeth before a fall. The hebrews had that right.